Cheruvathoor Poulose John, the general secretary of the Communist Marxist Party in Kerala, believes the CPM is missing the bus nationally by confining itself to becoming a regional, Kerala-based party.

John, who had said before the Bengal Assembly elections last year that the CPM lost the plot by going after Mamata Banerjee instead of focusing on the BJP, also hopes the Congress would play a key role in consolidating regional forces, especially former Congress leaders who are now key players in large states.

The 64-year-old communist from Kerala’s Kunnamkulam co-founded the CMP in 1987 when CPM leader M.V. Raghavan was expelled following differences over the formation of alliances. John has served two terms on the Kerala State Planning Board. The CMP is part of the Congress-led United Democratic Front in Kerala.

John, who takes an active interest in Bengal and its Left movement, was in Bengal last week to attend an event of the Party of Democratic Socialism — the CMP’s ally.

Excerpts from a conversation with The Telegraph:

Q: Given the situation in the wake of the Uttar Pradesh results, why, according to you, is the CPM in Kerala apparently happier about the Congress doing badly and less worried about the BJP doing so well?

John: See, the CPM has been reduced to a regional party, in Kerala, where it is very strong. So it has now started showing all the characteristics of a successful regional party in India. It is no more a national party or a party with a national outlook. Through that prism, you can see the rainbow of their attitudes. Meaning, number one, as you said they want to see that the Congress is defeated everywhere in the country so that their main enemy in Kerala can be defeated easily and that the Congress is becoming a soft prey.

Number two, as a regional party, they are very clear that it is very difficult for the BJP, unlike in Bengal, to become the principal Opposition, because of around 50 per cent minorities in Kerala.

And number three, they definitely understand that they have lost all the clout in Bengal and Tripura... and it is at a point of no return. So, they don’t want to waste time in talking about Bengal, as it would be like wasting time about the arrival of the communist party in Russia.

Q: About the current crop of leaders helming the CPM in Kerala....

John: Jyoti Basu, unlike Pinarayi (Vijayan) or (V.S.) Achuthanandan, was well known in the international circle, was an international figure. And even E.M.S. Namboodiripad was known in China and Russia as a communist leader. But now, look at the leaders.

Achuthanandan, known to some districts 50 years ago, in his 80s and 90s he became a state leader, maximum. It was his maximum growth. According to the Peter Principle, he can’t grow more.

(Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organisational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence.)

Pinarayi... he also knew that according to the Peter Principle, he has crossed the maximum level of his efficiency and he cannot contribute anything in the national scene, so better be in Kerala. Better be the best in Kerala, and do whatever is good for it.

Both Pinarayi Vijayan and Kodiyeri Balakrishnan are ill… very unfortunately. So people with… diseases are leading the party, and healthy men and women are (not given prominence) So this is a kind of ageism, a cousin to racism.

So it is a very rare combination of a party with Stalinist outlook successfully running the show in regional politics…. It is just another red DMK, I would say. The DMK is a party with great tradition and heritage, it is not like Mamata Banerjee’s party or the NCP or any other party.

Of course, the Samajwadi Party, it has a tradition of socialist movement. But I will compare the Kerala CPM as a “red DMK” with great heritage, and stories of heritage and stories of revolutionary thinking and all, what not, but working as a successful regional party with career leaders.

Moreover, national-level leadership has become defunct, irrelevant and unseen in the national scenario. After their repeated defeats in Calcutta, they are unseen in Delhi. Only because of the Calcutta CPM, they were visible in Delhi politics. They are not controlling a metropolis like Calcutta, they are least counted. Kerala’s total population is just about the population of Calcutta. Kerala is a rural area, an overgrown village.

Q: The Left, which was once a considerable force, I’m talking about several decades ago in UP and Punjab, has now been reduced to the “Colgate percentage”… 0.001 per cent.... Why is that?

John: Punjab was a citadel of the communist party. They had the heritage of the Ghadar Movement, Bhagat Singh, Chandrasekhar Azad…. All the followers of Bhagat Singh joined the communist party. Ajoy Ghosh was from Punjab, (Harkishan Singh) Surjeet was from Punjab, Sohan Singh was from Punjab. In Punjab there was the tradition of Kisan movement.... So the point is Punjab was a citadel of the communist party, and internationally the CPM was scaffolded by the Sikh comrades. For example, in the UK, Canada, the US.... Now, in Punjab, they are microscopic.

In Punjab or elsewhere, the communist party could not attract anybody, and again one of the main reasons is their losing Bengal. Only a party controlling such a government can address the people these days. If you are not able to control a government, no one will seriously consider you.

Q: Their loss of mass connect outside Kerala played a major role....

John: The backward communities, Dalits, Adivasis and OBCs are becoming more powerful among themselves. They are getting educated. They are not the raw material of the crowd. Fifty years ago, they were the raw material of the crowds. (In a) One million crowd, 8-9 lakh are very poor. In your Esplanade rally, you see if one million people come there, 80 per cent belongs to the poorest of the poor. Now, a new middle class has been emerging, even in the Dalit section. They are reading, learning, understanding. They cannot be washed out by the long speeches of the Brahmanical leaders.

Mamata Banerjee, she carries the Brahmanical surname of Banerjee. But she can talk to the Muslim minority. The CPM is simply not able to talk to them. What was the minority management in Bengal (during Left rule)? She is very serious about the minority development. But where were they, the Marxist babus? They were least bothered. They were talking about class struggles in the party offices and were in the boardroom class struggles.... People started going somewhere else, that’s it.

Q: Also the weakening of the Left-led labour, youth and student movements?

John: Look at Citu, DYFI, SFI... these movements. Where is the SFI now?

The SFI now is washed away. They are not able to adjust (to) the student community, because the students belonging to OBCs, SCs and STs.… how is the SFI talking to them? What is their ideology about the backward communities? So they have lost their credibility… and they have become armchair communists elsewhere and everywhere.

Q: What about the Congress?

John: We are with the Congress for the last 36 years. This is the 36th year of my party working along with the Congress in Kerala. Right from the ’87 elections we have been working. The Congress party also has to redefine itself.

What is the Congress party? Why should people look at it? Why the middle class? Why the OBCs? Why should Dalits and Adivasis look at it? Is there anything attractive in the showroom? You have to put something in the showroom. Only then.... You can’t run the show only with the help of some important leaders. You cannot put a leader in the showroom. The leader is only a shopkeeper. You have to put something in the shops. Only then people will come to you. A consumer cannot buy the shopkeeper.

The Congress also should think about uniting all the original Congress people, like Mamata Banerjee, Sharad Pawar, Jagan Mohan Reddy. All were Congressmen and women isn’t it? My takeaway is they should talk to these leaders.

They have to reconsolidate and reunite Congress if they are serious about defeating the BJP in 2024.

Q: So, basically the regional satraps....

John: There are strong regional parties like the DMK, RJD, Samajwadis.... So you look at the Indian map and see an interesting thing. Calcutta, Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi, the British Metros, are not run by the BJP or the Congress. Even Hyderabad. Not even Vijayawada.

Only Bangalore, after Operation Lotus, and Ahmedabad. They have to be satisfied with Lucknow, Bhopal (again, after Operation Lotus), etc. The B-level cities.

So, that is very important. Regional politics are very important. That is my takeaway. They should name the prime ministerial candidate. Or say they will support the regional party or parties with the largest number of MPs. That they will support an alternative government under the leadership of the leader of the biggest contingent. Fortunately, Mamata Banerjee can’t defeat Akhilesh in UP and he can’t defeat Mamata in Bengal. Both together can’t defeat Sharad Pawar in Maharashtra, and all of them together can’t defeat Stalin in Tamil Nadu. So, the point is let them compete with each other.

Mamata Banerjee, let her bring 40 of the 42 seats (of Bengal in the Lok Sabha) and Akhilesh 60 of the 80. That kind of competition the Congress should cultivate.

Q: What is your take on Mamata Banerjee now, and I ask this in the current context, looking ahead to 2024.

John: Mamata Banerjee can play an important role, she has to. I request her to consolidate forces as much as she can.

Q: Are you trying to do the same?

John: As far as my party is concerned, we have small branches across the country and are trying to consolidate a more formal relationship with smaller groups. We call ourselves the ‘New thinking Communists’ Confederation’.