Q. Let me begin by asking if you believe, like several others, that this election is one of India’s most critical. If so, why?

India had its first election in 1952 after Partition. The level of polarisation, the level of divisiveness, the level of religious animosity was high. But nowhere as high as today. We are witnessing a desperate and an unprece- dented effort to divide the people, especially on religious grounds, by the honourable Prime Minister and his ecosystem. If you notice, an overwhelmingly large number of people are worried about the fate of the Constitution. Indian elections emerge from the arrangements made in the Constitution. A significant number of BJP candidates have been saying give us a huge majority so they can change the Constitution. They are not talking about amendments, they are clearly saying change. They are not seeking a majority to remove poverty, they are not talking about jobs, which are the core issues. In Bihar, Tejashwi Yadav has been at the forefront of making unemployment the core issue of the discourse. This election is actually about whether we will have another election, whether the Surat model of elections will become the rule.

Q. So you are worried about there not being any future elections?

I am worried about the Chandigarh mayoral election, I am worried about how
Surat was won. I am worried about Modi and his team envisaging that model of elections and politics and let it be said that the danger is among us and palpable. It should worry us deeply.

Q. Mr Jha, how do you react to the sense that for all the worry and fears the Opposition has articulated, there remains a degree of inevitability to the outcome of the elections, that Narendra Modi is an invincible political quantity?

Invincibility is often sold by demagogues and megalomaniacs, history tells us that. History also tell us that the myth of invincibility has always been broken, the Indian people have broken it too. Nobody ever thought the Congress would lose in 1977. Mr Prime Minister is trapped in a mistaken make-believe world if he thinks he is invincible. Personality cults unravel. I would like to remind the BJP too. No matter how big the projection of the cult by lies and propaganda and manipulated media, one day people turn to assess the truth. Governments are not sustained on the size or magnificence of a temple or mosque or church or gurudwara. They are sustained by how they impact the daily lives of people, by how they serve the idea of shared co-existence in a country like ours. If some day Mr PM holds a mirror to himself, he will clearly see how he has failed the idea of India, the contours of which are spelt out by our Constitution.

Rahul Gandhi.

Q. To what degree has the INDIA bloc come up to the task of battling what you clearly consider a palpable threat to democracy and the Constitution? I ask this because INDIA is a non-starter in Bengal, it has come apart in Kashmir, it has been stabbed in your own state, Bihar. Do you not think INDIA has disintegrated from where it began?

Disintegrated is too strong a word. There are elements of rupture, but you must also give us some elbow room. We are not only fighting the BJP, a mammoth machinery with humongous resources at its command, we are also fighting an extremely hostile media, we are also fighting government agencies that have forgotten the principle of neutrality, we are also fighting an Election Commission that looks the other way on our complaints.

This is a not a level playing field, it is an extremely unequal field. Let me tell you, the ruptures in INDIA are not entirely our creation, the BJP has hijacked the entire political system in a ruthless way. Two chief ministers are in jail during an election, can you believe that? Every day noises are made about arresting Tejashwi Yadav. After the Emergency, Indira Gandhi released all her opponents, but look at what is happening now. We are not merely fighting a political battle, we are up against a whole hijacked system.

Mamata Banerjee

Q. So are we to understand that this election has been so skewed in favour of the establishment because of the way it has come to control and use resources and institutions? What gives the Opposition any hope that there is a fight here?

Sometimes, the people take things upon themselves, they have the power of the vote and they exercise it. People realise what they might lose forever. I tell you, wait for June 4, the people are going to tell you something. Do you see the lowering of the discourse after the first phase of elections at the level of the Prime Minister? The desperation, the targeting of a community, the use of the WhatsApp brand of history, this is very dangerous and worrisome. The damage that has been done by Mr Modi to our history, to memory, to institutions, it shall take very, very long
to repair.

Q. But what gives you hope that you will be able to defeat Narendra Modi?

I have been travelling in Bihar and I can tell you people are fed up with this regime. The low turnouts are telling you something.

Q. And what are the people telling us?

You know there is a limit to how you go about seeking votes. You are seeking votes
in the name of a temple? Nowhere in the world does any political party do this. The credit should go to Mr Prime Minister for reducing us to this level. Allow me to use the Bihar example. In the 17 months that Tejashwiji was deputy CM, more than five lakh jobs were given, in Bihar naukri means Tejashwi. That’s what political parties should promise in elections — jobs, livelihood, social security, issues that affect my plate, my daily life and well-being. Not the religion mongering and division mongering the Prime Minister is indulging in every day. The ugly decline in the Prime Minister’s language tells me that we are doing well. If this decline continues with more hate and more abusive language, be sure that INDIA will win this election.

Q. You’ve been a keen observer of political trends and shifts. Do you see a dif- ference between the tenor of the 2019 election and this one? And if you do, what is it?

The 2019 election was not an ordinary election. It was an election about martyrdom, about what happened in Pulwama. And many questions have been raised about how the terrible tragedy of Pulwama happened, including by Satya Pal Malikji who was then the Governor of Jammu and Kashmir. Nobody from the BJP has challenged what he has been saying. And while we are on Pulwama, let me mention a word on the tragic ladies whose mangalsutras were sacrificed at Pulwama. A committee was constituted, it is five years now but nobody knows what happened to that committee. Mr Prime Minister loves to talk about nationalism, what sort of nationalism is this? Were martyrs
accorded what was due to them? Is national security well taken care of? What a mockery is this Agniveer scheme? Four years of employment for our youth and you retire in your early twenties with no economic or employment guarantee?
A nation is not about a map and bombastic slogans, it is about a living people and
their conditions. But on the really key issues, Mr Prime Minister is conspicuously silent. People are asking why? 2019 was not a vote election, it was a tribute (to the martyrs of Pulwama). This election is a test. I say again, wait for June 4. People are worried about jobs and inflation, people are worried about social accord, people are worried about constitutional guarantees. People are worried about Mr Prime Minister not being able to enter the election arena without targeting the country’s largest minority, they are worried about him puncturing the prospect of a shared co-existence of Indians in the future. People will not forgive him.

Q. A few questions I must ask. The first: do you regret going back with Nitish Kumar?

These are not issues of regret. In 2017, Nitishji did what he did to us, everybody knows. In 2020, we fought a wonderful (Assembly) election under Tejashwiji; we lost a handful of manipulated seats. 2022, I am a witness to the entire process of what happened.

Q. Yes, which is why I am asking you.

Mr Nitish Kumar approached us saying his party is being broken by the BJP, let’s come together. At that point Tejashwiji laid a condition — only if I am allowed to execute my commitment to the people of Bihar, which was jobs.

Tejashwi Yadav.

Nitishji’s bureaucracy tried to put all sorts of obstacles, but in his short stint, Tejashwiji made a name for himself on the employment front.

Q. But what happened? Why did Nitish Kumar flip again?

I think Nitishji is not able to take decisions independently. I believe he has actually lost that ability.

Nitish Kumar

Q. This is a serious statement you are making because Nitish Kumar is the chief minister of a major state…

Yes, I realise that and I am saying this on record. Two or three bureaucrats and two or three politicians around him, they are not allowing Nitishji to take independent decisions. I am privy to a lot of things. Till the other day, he was managing the affairs of INDIA, almost from the forefront. Then small complaints began, about delays and this and that… Is this the way you behave when you are faced with a dictatorial regime? And suppose there were delays in deciding a few things, is that enough to go and join a man against whom you were leading a national coalition of parties? Strange! There was a whole group strategising to pull him back to the BJP. Now, even his followers are a little worried because of the way the BJP has sidelined him from the campaign, he is not welcome to share the dais with the PM. I am not in Nitishji’s party, but as a Bihari I believe that the kind of treatment being given to him is unacceptable. Even Tejashwiji has said that he is fighting Nitishji, but if he is treated with disrespect, it is unacceptable.

Q. Is Nitish Kumar not being in alliance with you hurting you? If he is, to what degree?

Not really, there have been fundamental changes. We have allocated a large number of tickets to Nitishji’s support base, or erstwhile support base. It does hurt, of course, that someone who was part of the planning for INDIA is suddenly not with us. But
on the whole, I believe we have taken care of the support base of Nitishji being with us this time, it is the subaltern support base.

Q. The two other questions that must be asked because the context keeps renewing itself: the allegation of parivarvaad in the RJD, and the sense that when the ED or CBI comes knocking at Lalu Prasad’s door on corruption, the charge that it is out of political vendetta somehow does not stick.

I have handled these questions for far too long. Parivarvaad. Let it also be said that this is a South Asian phenomenon, look around and you will know. Many political families promote their children into politics, not all succeed. They cannot hand over seats to them, seats have to be won, they have to be nursed, they have to be won again. I have seen what Tejashwiji does in Raghopur, it is a very tough job. Laluji did not have a crown that he put on Tejashwi’s head. Misaji has been contesting Patliputra, she has been losing but still lakhs of people want her to represent them. Come to Saran, Laluji’s original seat and political cradle, where Rohini Acharya is fighting from this time. She did not want to contest, but a delegation came from Saran requesting Laluji to field her, large numbers came. Rohini has a comfortable life in Singapore, she does not need to contest, but this is a request from the people on the ground. Again, I want to say, wait for June 4. Besides, who’s talking? I have an entire calendar and some spillover of BJP leaders and their families in politics and in power. On the question of the ED and CBI, let me say why this it is a political pursuit and how it makes our life difficult. There is one case against Tejashwiji where the CBI has twice closed it, there is a closure report, and when in 2022, Nitishji and Tejashwiji came together, this case was reopened. Suddenly when the alliance ends, the agencies start hounding again, almost overnight.

Q. Lalu Prasad, one of the most charismatic leaders of the political stage who can arguably mesmerise a crowd like no other, is he going to be able to campaign for 2024? If not, will that hurt the party?

Very frankly, the condition of Laluji’s health does not allow him to ride a chopper, go from one place to the other, mix around with people too much. There is the constant fear of infection, he needs to be protected and rested. But his guidance and direction is constantly there. We miss him as a crowd-puller, no doubt, but let me also tell you that the people and agencies who have brought him to this condition… they better watch out. Laluji reinvented the grammar of politics in Bihar and north India, he remains sharp as ever.

Q. One last question: What is India going to tell India on June 4?

As I said, this is a different kind of election. Wait for June 4. But whatever happens, we are here to fight to right fight, to protect the idea of India, to protect the values of the Constitution, for social amity and equality, for pluralism and federalism. We are here, we won’t allow a situation where we lose the plot.